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	<title>Comments on: Think the Stock Market is Going Down? Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is and Profit From It</title>
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		<title>By: Market Flavor</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18993</link>
		<dc:creator>Market Flavor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 21:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Short ETF&#039;s are great but I don&#039;t think now is a good time to start looking into shorting the market. The market may slide some more but I think now is a good time to start buying!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Short ETF&#8217;s are great but I don&#8217;t think now is a good time to start looking into shorting the market. The market may slide some more but I think now is a good time to start buying!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18827</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Wolfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is very interesting. I&#039;ve never heard of these short ETFs. I hold many ETFs that have declined quite a bit lately. Maybe this is a good alternative to look in to. It&#039;s still seems kind of scary because I have no idea how long the market will continue to decline. The way things have been going for me lately, I&#039;ll invest in a Short ETF and the market will turn around completely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very interesting. I&#8217;ve never heard of these short ETFs. I hold many ETFs that have declined quite a bit lately. Maybe this is a good alternative to look in to. It&#8217;s still seems kind of scary because I have no idea how long the market will continue to decline. The way things have been going for me lately, I&#8217;ll invest in a Short ETF and the market will turn around completely.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18074</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My bottom line is this-- under no circumstance is it quantitatively better to long and short a position than it is to move the same amount to cash, so if I believe QQQQ is going down, I&#039;ll temper the loss by moving assets to cash, not to PSQ. I&#039;ll end up better off that way. That is what I was trying to get at for golbguru.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My bottom line is this&#8211; under no circumstance is it quantitatively better to long and short a position than it is to move the same amount to cash, so if I believe QQQQ is going down, I&#8217;ll temper the loss by moving assets to cash, not to PSQ. I&#8217;ll end up better off that way. That is what I was trying to get at for golbguru.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18072</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Right, if you use that formula that is the case, but when you&#039;re doing that, you aren&#039;t hedging anymore, you are just allocating assets differently. In its pure form, a hedge is an offsetting position of a holding meant to reduce downside risk of that holding. 

There is no disagreement that moving toward a high percentage of cash in a down market will be good, and even better than a short hedge in an up market. I think the definition of what was initially suggested as a hedging tool quite a few comments up got lost.

Again, not a long-term strategy, but it is no different than when you buy put options when you are long a stock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, if you use that formula that is the case, but when you&#8217;re doing that, you aren&#8217;t hedging anymore, you are just allocating assets differently. In its pure form, a hedge is an offsetting position of a holding meant to reduce downside risk of that holding. </p>
<p>There is no disagreement that moving toward a high percentage of cash in a down market will be good, and even better than a short hedge in an up market. I think the definition of what was initially suggested as a hedging tool quite a few comments up got lost.</p>
<p>Again, not a long-term strategy, but it is no different than when you buy put options when you are long a stock.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18065</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My point is that you will always do better if you take the full OFFSETTING assets (in your example, the 20% short and the 20% long that it offsets, for a total of 40%) and do cash instead of long/short. This is an apples to apples comparison because you are basically eliminating the effect of 40% of your QQQ funds because they offset each other.

In your example, moving 40% to cash instead of 20% to short results in a loss of $300 on QQQ and a gain of $32 on your cash . . . so you lose $268, a better outcome than your short/long scenario. It will always be better to do this, no matter where the market goes, because the two scenarios are identical except the cash earns interest and the long/short tradeoff doesn&#039;t. Try it with a market that moves up . . . same situation.

The long/short on the same equities is not smart as a hedge in any situation. You are always better moving the funds that you offset to cash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is that you will always do better if you take the full OFFSETTING assets (in your example, the 20% short and the 20% long that it offsets, for a total of 40%) and do cash instead of long/short. This is an apples to apples comparison because you are basically eliminating the effect of 40% of your QQQ funds because they offset each other.</p>
<p>In your example, moving 40% to cash instead of 20% to short results in a loss of $300 on QQQ and a gain of $32 on your cash . . . so you lose $268, a better outcome than your short/long scenario. It will always be better to do this, no matter where the market goes, because the two scenarios are identical except the cash earns interest and the long/short tradeoff doesn&#8217;t. Try it with a market that moves up . . . same situation.</p>
<p>The long/short on the same equities is not smart as a hedge in any situation. You are always better moving the funds that you offset to cash.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18059</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh, I know what you&#039;re saying, but comparing say a 80% long 20% short mix can&#039;t be compared to 50/50 mix of stock/cash. Of course that will be better, and in a down market going 100% cash is better, but again, that gets into trying to predict and time the market.

I&#039;m just saying that even though it isn&#039;t ideal to hedge with the same asset, it could be better than moving the same percentage of your portfolio to cash.

For example, take a $10,000 portfolio in QQQ. Let&#039;s say over the course of 2 months it increases in value 5%. You realize a $500 gain. Just like if the market saw a 5% loss, you&#039;d lose $500. 

But if you weren&#039;t sure where the market was headed, but wanted to reduce a little risk, so you wanted to move 20% of your assets into something else. 

In the first case, you moved 20% into the Short QQQ. Let&#039;s say again, the next two months the nasdaq is down 5%. This time, you realize a loss of $300. Then let&#039;s assume in the other example you moved that 20% into cash earning 5% APY instead, so over 2 months it earns 0.82%. In this portfolio you would have realized a loss of $383.60, or lost over $80 more.

All things being equal, you fair better in a short-term decline with the short position vs. cash. Of course, the more money you move away from the long position and into either the short holding or cash the better you fair. And in an up market it is a losing strategy altogether, it only serves as downside protection.

Like you said, this is NOT a long-term strategy, and you&#039;re right, you never want to mitigate long-term risk with an asset that is expected to decline in the long term against something you expect to increase in value. 

The best way to diversify for the long run is with stocks and bonds, two asset classes that over time have proven to always increase, just at different rates with different volatility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I know what you&#8217;re saying, but comparing say a 80% long 20% short mix can&#8217;t be compared to 50/50 mix of stock/cash. Of course that will be better, and in a down market going 100% cash is better, but again, that gets into trying to predict and time the market.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just saying that even though it isn&#8217;t ideal to hedge with the same asset, it could be better than moving the same percentage of your portfolio to cash.</p>
<p>For example, take a $10,000 portfolio in QQQ. Let&#8217;s say over the course of 2 months it increases in value 5%. You realize a $500 gain. Just like if the market saw a 5% loss, you&#8217;d lose $500. </p>
<p>But if you weren&#8217;t sure where the market was headed, but wanted to reduce a little risk, so you wanted to move 20% of your assets into something else. </p>
<p>In the first case, you moved 20% into the Short QQQ. Let&#8217;s say again, the next two months the nasdaq is down 5%. This time, you realize a loss of $300. Then let&#8217;s assume in the other example you moved that 20% into cash earning 5% APY instead, so over 2 months it earns 0.82%. In this portfolio you would have realized a loss of $383.60, or lost over $80 more.</p>
<p>All things being equal, you fair better in a short-term decline with the short position vs. cash. Of course, the more money you move away from the long position and into either the short holding or cash the better you fair. And in an up market it is a losing strategy altogether, it only serves as downside protection.</p>
<p>Like you said, this is NOT a long-term strategy, and you&#8217;re right, you never want to mitigate long-term risk with an asset that is expected to decline in the long term against something you expect to increase in value. </p>
<p>The best way to diversify for the long run is with stocks and bonds, two asset classes that over time have proven to always increase, just at different rates with different volatility.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18058</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://genxfinance.com/2007/08/07/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/#comment-18058</guid>
		<description>But while the market moves 5%,

-- 50% of your money goes up 5% (long position)
-- 50% of your money goes nowhere (the other 25% in long and the 25% in short cancel each other)

That other 50% would be better served in a MM fund/account no matter where the market goes. At least it&#039;s getting that 0.41%, whereas your offsetting ETFs are guaranteed to get 0 or worse (due to ETF expenses).

I&#039;m not saying half cash is a good allocation at all. I&#039;m saying owning an ETF and the ETF that shorts is is a very bad allocation, and is beaten by replacing the offsetting funds with a fixed account. It&#039;s never a good idea to hold an asset and its inverse, as you&#039;ll only be spinning your wheels.

The bottom line with hedging is you don&#039;t want to hedge with something that will effectively NEGATE your gains in other investments. You want to mitigate risk, but both positions better have long-term expected growth. Inverse ETFs have long-term expected losses. That&#039;s not a good asset to hold except in the short term if you feel the market is declining (but I don&#039;t play that game).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But while the market moves 5%,</p>
<p>&#8211; 50% of your money goes up 5% (long position)<br />
&#8211; 50% of your money goes nowhere (the other 25% in long and the 25% in short cancel each other)</p>
<p>That other 50% would be better served in a MM fund/account no matter where the market goes. At least it&#8217;s getting that 0.41%, whereas your offsetting ETFs are guaranteed to get 0 or worse (due to ETF expenses).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying half cash is a good allocation at all. I&#8217;m saying owning an ETF and the ETF that shorts is is a very bad allocation, and is beaten by replacing the offsetting funds with a fixed account. It&#8217;s never a good idea to hold an asset and its inverse, as you&#8217;ll only be spinning your wheels.</p>
<p>The bottom line with hedging is you don&#8217;t want to hedge with something that will effectively NEGATE your gains in other investments. You want to mitigate risk, but both positions better have long-term expected growth. Inverse ETFs have long-term expected losses. That&#8217;s not a good asset to hold except in the short term if you feel the market is declining (but I don&#8217;t play that game).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18039</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brad, that&#039;s true, but it really depends on the timeframe you&#039;re looking at as well as how much the market is moving. Let&#039;s say your cash position is earning a typical rate of 5% APY. Well, if the market moves 5% in a matter of weeks, the amount of interest you&#039;ll earn on your cash could amount to very little 0.41% per month.

Of course, if we could predict the future, certainly protecting your losses with cash will almost always win out, but if you keep shuffling your portfolio around and moving 50% or more into cash you could hurt yourself just as much if your predictions are wrong and things take back off again. So, by hedging a little bit with a short position (doesn&#039;t have to be 75/25, that was just an example) you can remove some of the volatility without relying on timing the market by fussing with your asset allocation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, that&#8217;s true, but it really depends on the timeframe you&#8217;re looking at as well as how much the market is moving. Let&#8217;s say your cash position is earning a typical rate of 5% APY. Well, if the market moves 5% in a matter of weeks, the amount of interest you&#8217;ll earn on your cash could amount to very little 0.41% per month.</p>
<p>Of course, if we could predict the future, certainly protecting your losses with cash will almost always win out, but if you keep shuffling your portfolio around and moving 50% or more into cash you could hurt yourself just as much if your predictions are wrong and things take back off again. So, by hedging a little bit with a short position (doesn&#8217;t have to be 75/25, that was just an example) you can remove some of the volatility without relying on timing the market by fussing with your asset allocation.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-18036</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jeremy-- If you&#039;re going to go 75/25 long/short with ETFs, you&#039;d be better off going 50% long and 50% cash. It puts you at precisely the same risk level and the 50% that was previously offsetting is now gaining a fixed amount.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy&#8211; If you&#8217;re going to go 75/25 long/short with ETFs, you&#8217;d be better off going 50% long and 50% cash. It puts you at precisely the same risk level and the 50% that was previously offsetting is now gaining a fixed amount.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://genxfinance.com/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/comment-page-1/#comment-17953</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://genxfinance.com/2007/08/07/think-the-stock-market-is-going-down-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-and-profit-from-it/#comment-17953</guid>
		<description>Golb - As you said, in theory I suppose if the market always went up, at some point it would have to reach 0. But, from a realistic standpoint and how the fund is managed, I don&#039;t think that would ever happen. That is way out of my league though.

And like brad said, I&#039;m not sure I&#039;d use them as a direct hedge against other holdings. As he mentioned, if you owned QQQ and hedged it with some Short QQQ, as long as the correlation remained nearly 1:1 you&#039;d just cancel out. Although you could own say 75% QQQ and 25% PSQ, which would ultimately reduce volatility. You wouldn&#039;t see the highest gains in an up market and wouldn&#039;t see the biggest losses in a down market.

I think the best use of these types of funds is when you want to capitalize during the relative short-term when you see potential markets declining. For instance, if I was heavy in large cap stocks and it looks like small cap might be headed for trouble, rather than adjust my overall portfolio I could just pick up some small cap short etf.

Brad - Thanks for that chart, that is a great illustration of the correlation. 

Steve - I&#039;m with you, I don&#039;t know very much about these types of alternative investments either, which is one of the reasons I bring it up here so that by discussing them, hopefully everyone can learn something. If I ever get my CFA, maybe I&#039;ll understand how these products work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Golb &#8211; As you said, in theory I suppose if the market always went up, at some point it would have to reach 0. But, from a realistic standpoint and how the fund is managed, I don&#8217;t think that would ever happen. That is way out of my league though.</p>
<p>And like brad said, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;d use them as a direct hedge against other holdings. As he mentioned, if you owned QQQ and hedged it with some Short QQQ, as long as the correlation remained nearly 1:1 you&#8217;d just cancel out. Although you could own say 75% QQQ and 25% PSQ, which would ultimately reduce volatility. You wouldn&#8217;t see the highest gains in an up market and wouldn&#8217;t see the biggest losses in a down market.</p>
<p>I think the best use of these types of funds is when you want to capitalize during the relative short-term when you see potential markets declining. For instance, if I was heavy in large cap stocks and it looks like small cap might be headed for trouble, rather than adjust my overall portfolio I could just pick up some small cap short etf.</p>
<p>Brad &#8211; Thanks for that chart, that is a great illustration of the correlation. </p>
<p>Steve &#8211; I&#8217;m with you, I don&#8217;t know very much about these types of alternative investments either, which is one of the reasons I bring it up here so that by discussing them, hopefully everyone can learn something. If I ever get my CFA, maybe I&#8217;ll understand how these products work.</p>
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